David Lin (Uncut) 01-15-2025
Debt Crisis In 2025: Bitcoin To $1 Million Or $40k? | Samson Mow Vs. Clem Chambers
if you wanted to state that in the future there’ll never be a better crypto than Bitcoin the first one then I think that’s a very brave claim this is why Bitcoin Maximus exists they say all of that stuff is garbage if you look at who is buying Bitcoin the brightest people are saying buy Bitcoin and they buy Bitcoin and nothing else some entity is taking advantage advantage of coordinated fud and I think there is coordination to suppress the price for people to buy can I ask you then can I ask you why do you want to own an asset
that’s so feeble it can be pushed around by random people the question of where Bitcoin is headed after it hits $100,000 a coin is on everyone’s Minds it’s pulled back a little bit from its top a couple weeks ago what’s next medium-term and longterm what are the major themes that investors need to know joining us are two panelists experts on bitcoin who have opposing views on where the Bitcoin price may be headed in the medium term um on one side of the debate is uh Clen Chambers founder of a new FN
on and on the other hand we have Samson ma CEO of Jan 3 welcome gentlemen very good to see you happy New Year happy to host you both thanks David great to be here yeah great to be here let me set the stage for the audience who may have who may not have seen our prior interviews you can check out Clem’s and Samson’s last interviews with me independently links down below uh we I had a chat with Samson not too long ago Samson was on the show we had talked about hyperbitcoinization the adoption rate of Bitcoin and ultimately why
Bitcoin could reach a million dollars if you look at the failure of fat currencies they don’t gradually fail they fail spectacularly and this is the the premise behind the 1 million Bitcoin call that is not going to be a gradual slow increase to $1 million a coin but rather a very short and violent upheaval that sends us there in a matter of months weeks to months and if you look at the hyperbitcoinization landscape what you do see is more and more countries coming out in Bitcoin um so if this is not an indication that
hyperbitcoinization is coming I’m not really sure what is um I then talked to CLM shortly afterward about his calls and his views and CLM said that once we start hearing a million dollars uh in in in terms of Targets in the news it’s time to sell people aren’t preempting it and you know so I I’ve either been incredibly lucky the last few years by being almost exactly right or I’m right and here here we are gain it’s it’s what I said it would happen and it’s happened and I’m now not saying it’s going to a
million billion trillion no hang on in there millions and billions I’m saying well it’s near the top now you know the top could be 150 but it’s I you know I think that’s stretching it so a bit of a Divergence here in terms of what you think is going to happen uh Samson let me start with you maybe reiterate your thesis for uh Bitcoin and why you think that $100,000 is not the top yet yeah so I would say Bitcoin is undervalued even at 100,000 my thinking is we should have probably been at 200 by now but uh given
all of the current macroeconomic conditions the failure of Fiat currencies around the world the need for central banks to intervene constantly and just the general perception of Bitcoin changing after the ETFs launched I believe that changed the entire game I I really don’t think there is anywhere else to go but to Bitcoin and this trend will simply continue as conditions and more uncertainty arises in the world so you might think okay Bitcoin is um a tech stock it’s trading well I’m going to exit out of this position and go into
something else but you know there is really nothing else to go into like what do you want to hold real estate gold Fiat money I don’t know I I don’t think any of those things are worth holding if the trend is that corporations like micr stry are rapidly stacking Bitcoin nation states are rapidly accumulating Bitcoin nation states are making Bitcoin legal tender uh adding it to treasuries you know these things are a c change and I believe it signifies that Bitcoin is on the way to become the reserve asset of
the financial system so my view is there is no top and the best thing you can do is buy any given in time that you have the opportunity and the capital to buy Clen I’ll let you respond first to the um claim that Bitcoin at even $100,000 is undervalued here’s a price chart of Bitcoin over the past one year it’s up about 120% off its highs a little bit like I mentioned before but do you well do you agree or disagree with the notion that current levels are undervalued and if so uh why or why not well I think that’s
that’s a fundamentally bad way looking at any Market it’s undervalued particularly commodity markets the value is what it is it’s a it’s a balance of supply and demand and the price is right right now might change it might go up it might go down that’s what we call what future um will add to an asset’s value now I you know there’s always a call at the top of the market for the asset to go way way further and that’s where I believe we are I think you know we could get to 120 it’s not all over yet but the
big rise is over in this cycle now I I believe that if you want to say that Bitcoin is going to get to um a million dollars a coin you could be right but you going have to wait 12 years you’re going have to wait for another series of harving to get there because in a very simple model you can see that Bitcoin has a habit of of doubling every time it has a harving and you know that is something that has made me a lot of money I mean I’m not going to go against that idea because it has made me a lot
of money that simple straightforward idea and we’ve had our doubling and now we’re going to get probably that classic pullback which we’ve seen the last cycle and the cycle before and if you want to pull up all the moons that Bitcoin have had there’s only one since 2010 you can go a long way back in fact the price was so low you can have to muck about with that chart to even see it but if you go to that and I I wrote a piece for Falls many years ago which showed all the the the moons and the pullbacks and then the
following moons um and you you’ll see that it just doesn’t go straight up it goes up like a rocket and comes down like a rock that’s the Bitcoin cycle and it’s gone up like a rocket and it’s probably going to come down like a rock and we’ll have another cycle we have another crypto winter we’ll have another crypto spring um maybe but of course as these assets go mainstream so they get tied in with everything else and now that Bitcoin is tied in at The Hip To Wall Street you’ve got to ask yourself
for example is Wall Street bitcoin’s friend I don’t think so they nobody’s friend they take your money out of your pocket and put it in theirs and you know they will predate on bitcoin like they predated on everything else that’s what they do so I don’t think this going mainstream is particularly necessarily beneficial and you know with a million dollars a Bitcoin it Bitcoin will have twice the weight market cap of gold and you know Samson says oh well you know countries are now stacking Bitcoin they’ve been stacking
gold for 2,000 years and gold is where it is because where it is and so I don’t see in the short term or medium term Bitcoin actually surpassing gold in terms of market cap so something to bear in mind okay Samson I’ll let you respond to that first well gold can always be produced when there is more demand for gold miners go and get more gold and you know in recent years we found an asteroid that would add a couple trillion dollars to the Economy based on current gold prices and new deposits of gold are
being found all the time so it’s not like gold is equivalent to Bitcoin in any way Bitcoin is absolutely finite there are 21 million coins and no it’s not finite it’s absolutely not finite no way is it finite you can make p Bitcoin like you can make paper gold let’s let Samson finish first uh yeahor sorry but I mean you know important points like that I think yeah you’re getting to the stats part we we’ll talk about that in just a minute okay so yeah Samson please go ahead yeah so I think this is the
first finite asset that we’ve ever encountered and to look at it as if it’s a tech stock is a mistake because this is like CLM is representative of a lot of people and maybe a lot of Wall Street thinkers but they don’t fully understand that there is simply a point at which there is no more Bitcoin available and yes there can be paper Bitcoin in derivatives or just naked selling like in the FTX case where they sold Bitcoin they didn’t have but all of these things come to roost and again nobody really
figures out what a scarce asset like Bitcoin will do when the hits the fan because it’s never happened before every other asset there’s always been more Supply when more Supply is needed and people are treating Bitcoin like these things we’ve had in the past but it is a different Beast Al together so I think that uh there’s another point which I I want to touch on which is the Cycles so if you flip a coin three times and you get heads three times in a row or let’s say you flip a coin four times
and you get a pattern right you get U you know heads heads Heads tails and then you flip it again a few times and you get heads heads Heads tails and you do it again and you get the same pattern is that going to keep happening forever I don’t think so the each flip is independent of another flip so there is no guarantee that there are cycles and I think it’s a mistake to assume that I’m going to trade this forever and there are always going to be these Cycles because what Bitcoin is doing is replacing the financial system it’s not
an asset that’s trading within the boundaries of the financial system it is going to be the financial system and the way I like to look at it is the the German Mark collapse it’s not that yeah it it went through a cycle of boom and bust and then you know it slowly faded out it just went poof and it’s no longer used ever again and this is what’s going to happen to Fat currencies they will all be replaced by Bitcoin as money bring you guys the best information on the most impactful Market moving events
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ready here so why not sound better while living it yes Clen uh I’ll like you to respond to that police on why yeah why is Bitcoin not finite for your for your definition first of all banking produces paper assets and any form of storage of Bitcoin can produce paper Bitcoin and paper Bitcoin is everywhere right and paper paper crypto is everywhere so you can’t say you only can only ever be so many 21 million or whatever of Bitcoin because there can be 210 million paper Bitcoins out there I mean they were making paper gold in the
Middle Ages that’s what banks do they take your your your asset and then they write you a receipt that’s how fat currency works and there’s no reason you can’t do the same thing with Bitcoin the PO the other thing is you can have more than 21 million Bitcoins you can produce other cryptos I mean you can make a Bitcoin clunk like that okay and on top of that the miners could make more Bitcoin they could F Bitcoin there’s all those things that you can do you can add another zero onto your satosi you know
which exchanges do all the time yeah so to say that physical there’s only so many physical Bitcoins maybe but it doesn’t mean you can’t multiply the physicals into fear that’s what fear is That’s What Fear does that’s what governments do they make fear they can make fear Bitcoin exchanges make fear at Bitcoin why can’t governments make fear at Bitcoin and then you could go back to the fact that Bitcoin is really horribly flawed yeah it’s the security issues on bitcoin find are terrible you know you
get a bunch of North Korean show up and steal it all I mean no government’s going to risk that with crypto the fact that someone could find a bug in Bitcoin or in another crypto and just it disappears so it’s horribly flawed it’s not going to replace the financial system because governments control Financial systems because they have a monopoly on violence and a monopoly on on currency Bitcoin is private sector money if you look at the history of private sector money you’ll learned some interesting lessons about it okay Samson
can you address the security issues that Clen talked about and also um the um the infinite you know uh divisibility of Bitcoin through paper I’m not really sure I can I mean uh there’s a lot to unpack there uh but CLM if you think it’s so bad why don’t you just short it like short it in size with everything because it’s really bad do you know what I’m not a fan of shorting I’m not very good at shorting I just don’t own it yeah I’m very good at longing I’ve I’ve you know I’ve got goans on my wall because of
Bitcoin and I like him there I let me ask you this do you do you do you think that there are superior digital assets to Bitcoin in the crypto space if you if you wanted to state that in the future there’ll never be a better crypto than Bitcoin the first one then I think that’s a very brave claim that is the claim yeah but it it seems to me to be rather speculative to imagine that the first crypto that came out is going to be the best one ever well the the challenge there is that everyone can make a clone and you did touch on that
CLM you said you know you can make a a fork a Bitcoin you can make ethereum you can make uh Ripple all these Bitcoin like things that emulate Bitcoin but none of them are Bitcoin and this is why Bitcoin maximalist exist they say all of that stuff is garbage and you only want Bitcoin now maybe you think they’re equivalent and then you go and invest in it maybe you think they’re good and you want to diversifi to had your bets but if you look at who is buying Bitcoin the brightest people are saying buy Bitcoin
and they buy Bitcoin and nothing else like Michael sailor only buys Bitcoin he doesn’t buy other digital assets he doesn’t buy gold or real estate it’s only Bitcoin and I don’t know I can try to unpack some of your claims like the the flaws the like the the whole point of Bitcoin is that it’s a bearer asset so yes in theory if you’re cyber security is bad people can hack it and hack you and steal your Bitcoin but the Counterpoint to that is not to centralize it into a government institution or database which also get
hacked all the time but to up your security and use multisig and Technology that’s available like Hardware wallets to secure your Bitcoin properly so the stuff gets Bitcoins get stolen because you don’t have the good security Now your other point was that there are lots of bugs in Bitcoin that’s simply not true no it’s security is the major flaw that’s that’s the massive flaw I simply can’t own enough um crypto to make it worth my wild these days because it’s too dangerous maybe for you but uh what was the other argument
that Chang Z let’s address the valuations part so I don’t CLM didn’t say it will never reach a million I think you know specifically said maybe in the next 12 years right so um do you agree that now is time for a big poll back per Clem’s claim before we eventually go higher I would say no I mean if you look at Bitcoin right now we’re we’re kind of uh consolidating in the 90k range uh 90 plus and all the pullbacks to me seem manufactured it’s Traders pushing the price down to buy more and if you look at the chart this
uh morning you see the the green candles The Stairway to Heaven some entity is taking advantage advantage of coordinated fud which is the doj is uh green lit to sell that was done on the 30th of December why is it hitting the market now while the jobs news is coming out and you know it all happens at the same time and I think there is coordination to suppress the price for people bu can I ask you then can I ask you why do you want to own an asset that’s so feeble it can be pushed around by random people it can be pushed short
term because there are two million plus coins sloshing around on exchanges so Traders can push the price down but it’s only doable for a short amount of time if you is it it’s what it’s pretty weak that isn’t it I mean I mean go look you’re in the UK right what’s the pound doing today it’s not being pushed around by Mickey Mouse organizations trying to buy more it’s being pushed around by some economic factors if uh David you pull up the chart yeah Global Forex is a big is a big deal and it’s pushed if
it’s pushed around at all it’s pushed around by government not by you know shadowy and people that traders that want to buy more but Clen governments are buying it now what makes you think governments are not pushing the price down to buy more buying gold too it’s not going to go through the roof well it might do well over the next four or five years but it’s not going to double and triple and go 10x right I mean they’re buying gold big time I mean you know China’s loading up like trucks of it but
it’s not going to 10x and you know people who look at Bitcoin now they’re looking at a million that’s a 10x you know not 20% it’s 10x you’re talking about and you know whole the Chinese government the second most powerful country in the world is filling it up with gold it’s not going a 10x it might go 20% in the next year 30% yeah but gold is old and there is a theory out there that uh the us if it wants to play the Bitcoin game and I don’t know if you follow politics in the US but Trump has said they they
want to create a Bitcoin reserve a strategic Bitcoin Reserve if they do that they can simply sell gold to buy Bitcoin and in which case you kind of uh two birds with one stone you demonetize gold weaken your enemies and then you strengthen your own position well you print money you’d print cash you’d print dollar bills and buy Bitcoin you would you don’t have to sell your goal why would you do that that’s a strategic Reserve as well but remember that America’s got an oil strategic reserve it doesn’t push oil through the roof
either uh you know what let’s talk about something that Samson brought up in in my interview last time with him you said to me that there is a problem with too much debt I think Clem and I both you know Clement maybe agrees with you on that there’s a enormous amount of debt piling up in not just the us but around the world uh you said that Bitcoin is possibly or you know in in a sense the Strategic Reserve is possibly a solution to this um Rising debt issue uh that could weaken the economy is is there a
particular reason or Catalyst that will said it parabolic well there’s a number of reasons like first of all you can look at the macroeconomic landscape and the the massive accumulation of debt in the us um interest payments are getting to $1 trillion a year and I don’t think most people realize but these are astronomical numbers and these are absolutely unsustainable so either there’s going to be a debt Jubilee or the US dollar has to rebase to bitcoin so you know one Satoshi there’s 100 million Satoshi in a Bitcoin and you
could reprice the US dollar to one Satoshi equals $1 now can you can you just explain why Bitcoin is possibly a solution to this well debt is a problem everywhere and it’s becoming more and more evident right like if you look at the guilts they’re already the the the rates are going up right now again uh they went crazy in 2022 September and now it seems to be repeating again but all of this is because the nobody wants to lend government’s money so they they pay more and it’s the same case in the
US debt is growing at an astronomical rate 36 something trillion now it just keeps going up uh 100 billion every 100 days or something like that but it’s just uh unsustainable so something has to happen and this is why there is a push to create the department of government efficiency to cut costs to kind of fix the debt problem but I just don’t see that being able to fix because the interest compounds and it’s really hard to cut cost drastically especially when there’s an entrenched system in place that depend on government spending
to function and get their paychecks so I think the way around that is to uh rebase to bitcoin and there is hints of that when Trump was saying maybe we can use Bitcoin to pay off the debt and other politicians in the US have said the same thing too so if that does catch on then you do have this step transformation of Bitcoin into a reserve asset and this is why there is no cycle it’s just replacing Fiat money before I get CL the respon how how is Bitcoin going to be used to pay the debt like mechanically speaking they’re go to buy
the Bitcoin and then use it to pay off debt once it appreciates is that the logic here well I think they need to accumulate some Bitcoin in the treasury so they want 1 million coins which is difficult to acquire and then you would be able to say you know we’ll meet debt requirements with the Satoshi so $1 equals one Satoshi now which puts Bitcoin at $100 million a coin and then at that point you just say you know you get a Satoshi every dollar that we owe you okay Clen do you agree that a new monetary system needs to emerge and if
so is it going to be one that is backed by Bitcoin well it’s not going to be is it I mean why would government um chop its own head off by tying itself to a a a an asset that it doesn’t control I mean you know it has a monopoly of violence and it has the Monopoly of money and why would it give that up and the problem with the debt if if you know there is a problem with the debt is because the people that run the country like to spend money they’re not going to suddenly say oh we’re not going to spend
money all they got to do is stop spending money and you don’t have a debt problem but what people don’t realize is a there a fairly big chunk of misinformation about the American debt 70% of it is owed to Americans now if you’re Brazil or or Argentina and you owe 100% of your national debt to Americans and you don’t print dollars you got a problem if you’re Japan and you got a massive debt 240% of to GDP but you just owe it to Japanese you don’t have a problem at all for 70% of the American national debt is
an asset of Americans Americans get paid interest by the American government for 70% of the American national debt so actually the only problem part of the national debt is 30% so actually the national debt that should worry people is only 30% of the total in fact it’s less because some of the American national debt is owned and holded by the fed and some of the national debt is also held by government so the actual figure that counts is much smaller because you know American just dollar bills and give it to Americans that
doesn’t cause you a problem it’s when you print your local currency and the people that lent you the money in theirs don’t want it but you have a problem which is the problem with places like Argentina so the actual national debt is a lot smaller problem it’s still a problem it’s a much smaller problem than the Topline number and people don’t talk about that they don’t say oh Americans own 70% of the national debt and get paid that interest do they oh okay well that’s it’s not so bad then is it
because to Americans 70% of the national debt is an asset yeah a debt on one side of the balance sheet an asset on the other it is not an asset though like let’s say they own 100% of their own deasy Bond’s not an asset no it’s not yeah You’ reckon well give me all your treasury bonds then I have for but I mean it’s a tier one asset mate it’s a tier one asset you can go and cash the blooming treasury bond today for 9. x% of his of his face value I think we have a difference in understanding of what an
asset is Samson what do you mean by it’s not an asset well is I don’t know if you have chuckecheese in the UK but are Chuck-E-Cheese tokens an asset you can’t buy a house with a Chuck-E-Cheese token but you can with a government treasury until you can’t buy until but that’s not now is it well these things happen very quickly you go back to Germany like you said you like to look at history go look at Germany as an example so very interesting it’s very interesting period of inflation they inflated a currency away because they
wanted to get out of their reparations well they were in control of that inflation there’s only one party that can create inflation and that’s governments and they do it on purpose they don’t do it by accident I think they do it’s a bit of both it’s a bit purpose and a bit accident but let’s say you own 100% of your debt how are you going to trade internationally why do people want your dollar that’s uh kind of worthless at that point people want what is valuable and if you look at the monetary system The Current financial
system rather it’s starting to die when the Russia and Ukrainian War started the Russian system was cut off by from Swift so and then a lot of their assets were seized too so would would other countries like China One of the biggest trading partners of the US want the dollars want uh to keep their assets quote unquote in t- bills I don’t think so I think they would want hard assets so you can the debt is absolutely a problem and you can say you pay it yourself but it just ruins the currency at that point it just becomes worthless
yeah the dollar is not not going anywhere if anything is going up been singing about the dollar dying for years and years ever since I was a child and here it still is still strong still the number one currency it is the number one fiat currency because it’s the reserve asset currently but if you go back in history and you look at every Reserve currency of the world they last for about a hundred years more or less and if you go back and you look at the dollar like David can pull up a chart the purchasing power of a dollar over
the last 100 years from 1924 to 2024 it’s gone to about zero you’re literally incorrect that it’s held value over time I think yeah I think we’re I never said held value you you know yeah in the sense that inflation happens the fiat currency buys less and less of things over time um but how does this relate to bitcoin I mean is is Bitcoin the future of of of of money is it the medium of exchange uh uh of of the world the def facto medium exchange is that where we’re heading towards is is that what
you’re saying Samson I believe so so if you look at all the Fiat money right now it is a grand experiment that started when we severed from gold and it just became money printed out of thin air and if you look at the vast majority of human history there is work behind every money if it’s gold it’s digging it up refining it if it’s uh beaver pelts then you have to catch and skin the beaver if it’s beads you have to make the the the thing of beads there’s a lot of work involved so the big experiment I see is
not something like Bitcoin Bitcoin is hard money it’s energy based on money or energy money and then you have metallic money metals that you are used as money for much of human history those are inferior to bitcoin because energy money like Bitcoin can be teleported around the world instantly because we have the internet and it can be verified which you cannot do with metallic money you can’t count the atoms easily in a gold bar you can’t even tell it’s real and there’s case after case of Reserve
metallic monies that are fake they’re bars of lead wrapped in gold or silver wrapped in uh lead wrapped in silver so this is why Bitcoin is inevitably going to replace everything because it’s a system that functions without the control of a government and cl you’re saying why would a government give up control the governments don’t want to give up control but they have no choice at this point if you look at the UK that’s not the way governments work my friend you just have to look at North Korea to see that governments can pretty
much do what they want if they get their act together so are you saying the UK is like North Korea the people have no voice no self-determination well they have a lot lot less voice now than they did a few years ago right right but if you say everyone in the UK now has Bitcoin and Bitcoin is just simply 12 words you can memorize it you don’t keep it on a hot wallet on your PC at home you write it down or you stamp it into a metal seed seed plate or something and you put it into a safe if everybody had
um you know $10,000 get into a safe no one’s ever stolen a safe yeah but the point is it is it’s very easy to steal money from people or take it from them when it’s in a bank account and we had that a week doesn’t go by that someone’s trying to steal my crypto every day someone’s trying to steal my crypto none of my other assets is every every day someone trying to steal them but going back to an earlier point the fundamental flaw in your argument comes back to gr’s law okay you’re saying bitcoin’s hard
money bitcoin’s great money I I’ll agree with you bad money drives out good that’s Gran’s law That’s the Law of money so bad money in your book fear drives out Bitcoin right that’s the law That’s the Law of monetary gan’s law is that you spend the worth worthless money first so bad money driv that good because of that yeah I think you’re Mr inter misinterpreting gish’s law it’s that you spend the bad money first you keep the good money so if you have both pounds and Bitcoin you spend your pounds first you don’t Circ
yeah that’s right that’s right it is is used as money yeah but you it drives out the good money which ends up in a pot bu let me let me let me just let me just ask Samson this okay so what is the road to higher adoption or higher levels of adoption for Bitcoin will people be using it as a store of value as a medium of exchange uh will will will people be using it as an investment vehicle as a speculative asset I mean what do you think the path is going forward for the majority of people who have access to
financial markets yeah so I would say we’re on track to become a unit of account and that is when we get to 500k per coin or something like that and that’s the point at which we start to demonetize Gold demonetize real estate things that have been used to store value in proxy because there’s nothing better and when Bitcoin reaches those levels people will start to say okay I’m not going to sell you a house for pounds anymore I don’t want the pounds it’s driving out the bad money at that point and they’ll say pay me in Bitcoin and
all of the technologies that uh companies like blockstream Jan 3 and others that are building this is enabling Bitcoin to be paying you know for a cup of coffee using second layer technology so absolutely Bitcoin is going to replace everything it’s going to be a store value medium of exchange and a unit of account okay uh to Clem’s point about security let me just pull up this uh you know you’re both aware of the breakthroughs in Quantum Computing so people have been writing about uh the impact of quantum Computing with the
potential impact on cryptography and Bitcoin in particular uh with the arrival Google’s Willow which you know is astr is astronomically faster than anything that we have currently it is potentially possible people WR that uh the the blockchain of Bitcoin could be decoded uh by Quantum Computing uh CLM I’ll let you respond to this first and then Samson I I don’t think that’ll happen and you know that they will you see Bitcoin isn’t really that immutable and if they came up with a way of of you know rehashing and finding private keys
of quantum Computing they just change the algo and make it you know ex infinitely harder and so on and so forth so the code would just be changed it’s allowed to be changed I mean as long as there’s consensus they can do what they like with Bitcoin and at some point there would be consensus I mean Bitcoin would be destroyed right so the the miners would get consensus and there would be a new algo and and things would change and it could be the same with the number of of Bitcoins that could be issued with consensus that number can be
changed and you know who’s to say that it wouldn’t be at some time in the future it is not immutable with consensus it can be changed and has been in the past and you know that to say that it would never be more than 21 million to say that it you know Quantum will will break the algo at some point in the future that’s not actually set in stone very very difficult it need very very good reason for the system to be changed and it would probably be a lot of hard work and consensus to do it but it can be done and things that can be
done generally you know are done in the end Samson the market is not reacting too neg negatively to this development but anyway I’ll let you respond to this what do you think of this development well I agree in some point with CLM that Quantum is not a threat I don’t believe that it is at a stage where it it can be a threat right now I think maybe in 10 years maybe if we’re lucky but there are upgrades to bitcoin and you know CL is right to that point there are upgrades and there are consensus decisions that
you know everyone agrees to run node and the rules can change to a point but it’s it’s not like there will be consensus to make Bitcoin know inflationary or to increase the supply infinitely that just won’t happen because nobody in their right mind would agree to these things and you need absolute super majority to implement some sort of change like that and likely would need to be a softwork as well so backwards compatible so there are security upgrades that can be done there are upgrades that can protect
different elements of Bitcoin that could potentially be susceptible to Quantum Computing but in large part I think it’s far away and the existing Financial system is far at at greater risk like your bank pin is four digits for the most part you know a private key to bitcoin is far far more complex and larger and what’s your mother’s maiden name Samson sorry what’s your mother’s maiden name CLM it’s my little joke CLM uh let’s Okay so so if if you don’t believe that Bitcoin has a place in the government’s treasury do you think it
has a place I don’t agree with that I don’t agree with that at all of course it has it but it’s another asset it’s just another asset it’s not this magical all powering Earth devouring Mar so yes or no should the should the US adopt Bitcoin as a strategic Reserve in the same way as it does oil and it does other metals and quantities yeah sure why not okay so there’s nothing wrong with that per se nothing wrong with that nothing wrong with that at all but do you think it’ll have any impact on the
price shortterm or long term um not really okay I think the oil reserve the Strategic oil reserve of America doesn’t affect the oil price that much what what what is the value in I’ll let clam respond I’ll let Samson respond to this as well what is a value in 2025 I’m not talking about you know 15 years or 100 years from now when the last Bitcoin is M but right now what is the value for the average investor to hold Bitcoin with the value proposition shouldn’t rather okay Diversified portfolio of
risk is always a good thing and it’s another asset so why wouldn’t you hold some of it so it’s like the tech it’s like a tech stock it’s just another specul I mean you know I I I I would in normal cases just um dollar cost average it in fact if youed to type in dollar cost average into Google I would pop up saying do it to bitcoin and you know there’s there’s times to buy when it’s cheap and sell when it’s not cheap is normally good advice but there’s nothing wrong with dollar cost averaging um
crypto um Bitcoin you know as long as you keep it within a decent balance of your other portfolio it makes sense you know it used to be uncorrelated now it’s not uncorrelated but nonetheless a diversified portfolio of assets is always a good idea and it’s another asset okay uh Samson you’ve already given your thesis for the upside but just tell us again the value proposition for holding it in 2025 given that it’s already climbed 120% over the last 12 months I mean if you’re holding Bitcoin for the long term then you should hold
as much as you’re comfortable with in Bitcoin because Bitcoin is the only asset that can’t be seized stolen or debased everything else is inferior to bitcoin you buy a house then it could be burned it could let me ask you this would you would you buy a house using Bitcoin like I I sell you a house Sam and I say I accept you know five Bitcoin whatever the case may be um would you do it not for another years 10 20 years later maybe okay Sam I don’t agree it can’t be stol and I don’t agree it can’t be
seized there Bitcoin getting seized by governments all day long at the moment and it certainly can be stolen I mean all I got to do is go on to Twitter and say I got some Bitcoin can you help me and a load of cricks will come out of the woodwork and start suggesting that you know they’ll sort me out and they’ll steal my Bitcoin pretty quick so I’m don’t engage with those guys yeah but it’s like saying you know I I don’t mind live in this city but I can’t walk down half of it because I’m going to get
murdered I mean that’s that’s not an argument for living in that City governments will seize Bitcoin if it’s related to some crime but if you imagine everybody in the UK held Bitcoin and they held it securely not on their hot like their Internet connected computers then how does the government seize everybody’s Bitcoin what if someone just memorize 12 words how do they seize it so I’ve got North Korea trying to seize my Bitcoin right now but I thought you sold it all I did but they’re still trying to hack me okay
don’t you get don’t you have people trying to hack you every week you must really Co you lucky man you lucky lucky man I want to talk let’s talk about altcoins for just a minut it compare to Bitcoins one argument against Bitcoin Samson I like you to address this first is that um each one of bitcoin’s value propositions can be replaced by something else in the crypto ecosystem by a superior coin for that particular purpose if you were to look at um a medium of exchange we have stable coins that are you know if you
take a look at payments platforms like coin payments most of their 80% of the transactions now with stable coins that used to be Bitcoins if you look at the store value aspect um one could make the argument for Bitcoin we could also make the argument for something else um if you take a look at uh uh fungibility you know we have nfts for example there’s just something else for each aspect of Bitcoin how would you respond to that I mean any anybody can make a fork and we’ve gone through this there were tons
of Bitcoin Forks we had the blocksize war where people tried to Fork it but Bitcoin cannot be changed without consensus and nothing that is not true for most of these other things because most of them are basically corporations pretending to be decentralized and mimicking Bitcoin as best to the of their ability and a lot of things like stable coins they are centralized there is an issuer of the stable coin and those will only last so long as the fiat currency function so Bitcoin is the only thing that can really survive and it has
this critical mass of both adoption and people that run nodes and develop the software and that’s not the case for everything else if you could coales and have that critical mass then there wouldn’t be salana those salana guys would be working on ethereum but that’s not the case for altcoins everybody is motivated to create their own new Al altcoin as you’re saying to serve some nich and more people that are new that don’t understand it might buy that narrative but the people people that have gone through you know a couple
years in the space they kind of understand eventually that okay altcoins exist to mine Bitcoin from people right and if you look at the behavior of a lot of the crypto Founders what do they do when they do their Ico they buy Bitcoin who are some of the biggest holders of Bitcoin it’s uh tezos EOS the guys that did icos to launch their token how is their token doing today you can go check how is Bitcoin doing today and how much Bitcoin do they have they have a good chunk okay so yeah there’s also the
network effect right that we we should comment on uh that that is a pro for Bitcoin CLM uh Satoshi intended Bitcoin in his original white paper or their white paper uh to be a peer-to-peer Network now it is used in some cases in many cases as a peer-to-peer system but not universally meaning if I TR you know most people when they transfer money to to their peers at least in developed countries don’t Cur use Bitcoin B2B is a different story why do you think that is you mentioned Gram’s law is there
another reason well you know people like to have environments provided to them to make their life easy and you know people like binance may have a great platform that makes and Bitcoin and all the other cryptos dead easy and engaging and exciting and they look after the custody blah blah blah blah blah and and people give up their private key um dominance over their their crypto and hand it off to the third party who who does a does a better job and um you know sometimes does a better job sometime runs off with
the crypto and disappears so you know it’s kind of natural that people like to have layers of intermediates to actually take away the bind and the difficulty of dealing with crypto that that most people find you know a very steep learning curve so that that’s a natural thing to happen and I I I love crypto but there’s some serious flaws and Bitcoin is is the best because it’s got the best meme it’s got the best brand it hasn’t got people fiddling with it and getting up to Monkey Business Like a load of of and proof of State
coins do the proof of work is is a definite benefit um for it and and that’s why it is the 800 pound gorilla in in the sphere my only disagreement is is this idea that somehow is you know all the the euro is going to vanish and the and the um the Yen’s going to vanish and the Dollar’s going to vanish and there just going to be Bitcoin and it’s going to be a billion dollars of coin and you know buy it now and and in up in 30 years time you’ll be the richest person in in in the at the crematorium
um I don’t I don’t agree it’s just another asset yeah well let me ask you the same question I asked Samson would you buy a house using Bitcoin if I were to sell you a house you exchange Bitcoins sure Bitcoins denominated in dollars dollars are not denominated in Bitcoin this is probably where I differ from Samson by by by definition what you’re saying is there’s a hard asset in this case real estate I’m using real estate that theoretically has better value long term than Bitcoin otherwise you wouldn’t sell your Bitcoin for this
house most billionaires in this world have have made their billions out of real estate so you know why would you fight it closing thoughts so Samson reiterate one more time your uh outlook for Bitcoin for just for 2025 I think there are going to be big moves this year I think 2025 we could see 1 million per coin and I still think that you should just buy it regardless of the price there is no need to wait for a pullback you can DCA and I think Clem agrees DCA is good but if you can lump some buy lump some buy if it’s good
enough for sailor as a strategy then it’s good enough for your average Joe uh Clen your your 2025 outlook for Bitcoin well I like to buy assets when they’re cheap and I like to sell them when they’re expensive and Bitcoin ain’t cheap anymore it was at 5 2018 or whever it got down to and I was saying to people oh Bitcoin oh yeah now you need to buy that and now it’s up here at 100,000 I’m going you know maybe 20% upside and um saying that that mic strategy was a bit expensive I think 19% higher than it is now so you know it’s
not cheap anymore you’d be lucky if it went another 20 25% and and it would be um not unlucky if you’re looking at 40 50,000 sometime this year just one just one follow up Clen how do you know it’s not cheap anymore you mentioned 25,000 at one point 25,000 was a lot of money for Bitcoin right and you know back in 2021 if it had gone to 20 uh 2017 rather if it had surpassed 20,000 that would have been probably considered expensive at the time so just how do you you know what metrics do you look at to determine
whether or not it’s cheap or expensive at any given time well I think as the supply half so the price should double unless something systemic occurs and you know Samson would say the systemic thing is the move into the mainstream and I would say that’s probably not a good thing because I think when you move into the mainstream you know the the um you attract a whole new level of caliber of predator and in this case it’s it’s the Predators or the Financial Services Industries who are world famous for
their predatory behavior and governments who are also world famous for their predatory behavior so now Bitcoin really does hit the mainstream it really does get into the the you know the big game where they’re up against the big Power and I don’t think um you know it will um be good for um crypto at that stage because governments are in charge and I’m not an anarchist so I don’t think that Bitcoin is the antidote to big government I don’t think that’s the the way that it works I think what happens
is private sector money appears because there’s mismanagement by government and then when government catches up with its appearance they snuff it out and I think you’ll be seeing you know similar sort of occurrence uh with Bitcoin or this next cycle there is a risk of it being um seriously damaged by its entry into the mainstream and and the environment that that that will create for it and you’ve seen it as a asset go from uncorrelated to correlated now so that should be telling you something now that
Bitcoin is starting to be correlated with everything else is becoming like everything else isn’t it and that isn’t the dream is it okay Samson I’ll let you respond to that and we can close it off here yeah well there’s elements there I agree with we do need to be cautious that Bitcoin is at risk when it enters mainstream like entities like black rock that have outsized power in the world and Fin Cal power they can potentially push for changes to bitcoin and we need to be ready for those attacks and I think this
is why people need to study Bitcoin run a node study the block size Wars and realize that the power does not lie with big players and these big predators but rather with the individual the guy running know it at home and this is what makes Bitcoin peer-to-peer cash that you run your own node and you’re Sovereign you have your own Bitcoin yourself not stored with coinbase and not wrapped up in ETF somewhere but I think there is a place for it in the mainstream because maybe you don’t want to get hacked by
North Korea so you buy the ETF and then it’s safe but there is a cost to that first of all you have to pay you know some basis points to Black Rock or whichever ETF fund but in the event that there is a 6 6102 executive order seizing Bitcoin you know your stuff is gone at that point so study Bitcoin learn how to custody yourself and secure it yourself it’s not really hard uh you can buy a blockstream jade Plus or any hardware wallet a cold card and keep your Bitcoin yourself okay great thank you very much gentlemen good talk
uh thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Clen where can we learn more from you uh well you know I I write a lot about um Bitcoin in fobes and also Seeking Alpha and I’ve got to say I called it up and now I’m calling it down I’m not just one of these people that calls everything down all the time or for that matter calls it up indefinitely so you know as I say I like to buy things when they’re cheap and I like to sell them when they’re not cheap and um Bitcoin in my book is not cheap anymore
okay uh Samson where can we follow you um you can find me on X my handle is excelion e ex c l l i o n and you can look up jan3 at Jan 3.com all right we’ll put the links down below thank you very much again to both of you for Lending us your time and educating us about your points of view we’ll speak again soon take care thanks David yes nice to meet youson byee nice to meet you thank you for watching don’t forget to like And subscribe